Ri - Eachdraidh nam mùthaidhean

Susanharris: /* To infinity... */

2017-04-14T07:57:26Z

To infinity...

Akerbeltz: /* First things first */

2017-04-04T21:04:07Z

First things first

Akerbeltz: /* First things first */

2017-04-04T21:03:01Z

First things first

Akerbeltz: /* To infinity... */

2017-04-04T20:45:30Z

To infinity...

Akerbeltz: /* To infinity... */

2017-04-04T20:44:40Z

To infinity...

Akerbeltz: /* To infinity... */

2017-04-04T20:44:25Z

To infinity...

Akerbeltz: /* First things first */

2017-04-04T20:37:05Z

First things first

Akerbeltz: /* First things first */

2017-04-04T20:35:13Z

First things first

Susanharris: /* and beyond... */

2017-04-04T09:43:20Z

and beyond...

Susanharris: /* and beyond... */

2017-04-04T09:41:20Z

and beyond...

@@ Loidhne 41: / Loidhne 41: @@
 Now, that was the easy bit.
-Meaning and use of <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> are a bit more tricky.  Rather than give a long list of ways that this preposition can be translated (the format of most textbooks), depending on context and the verbs it is used with, we will try to give you an idea of what concept(s) <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> entails, within Gaelic.
+Meaning and use of <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> are a bit more tricky.  Rather than give a long list of ways that this preposition can be translated (the format of most textbooks), depending on context and the verbs it is used with, we will try to give you an idea of what concept(s) <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> entails.
 The primary meaning of <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> is best summed up as the "interaction between two participants in which some form of feedback or resistance is exhibited".  Think of a man holding his head in front of a fan blowing at full force and you're not far off the concept.  And contrary to some grammars, it *can* involve physical motion.

@@ Loidhne 26: / Loidhne 26: @@
 You will sometimes see <span style="color: #008000;">ruinn</span> and <span style="color: #008000;">ruibh</span> spelt as <span style="color: #008000;">rinn</span> and <span style="color: #008000;">ribh</span>. Also, you will have noticed that most unexpectedly, the <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> in <span style="color: #008000;">rium, riut, ris, rithe</span> and <span style="color: #008000;">riutha</span> is pronounced as [rʲ] even though you will have learned that at the beginning of a word all r-sounds are pronounced strong, as [R].
-The reasons for this seem mysterious but it's not really such a mystery.  The reasons for the r being slender are clear.  In Old Irish, the r was simply not at the beginning of the word because <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> used to be <span style="color: #6600CC;">fri</span>.  Over time, the f just got lenited away.  However, because <span style="color: #6600CC;">fri</span> had been originally (when the <span style="color: #008000;">f</span> was still around) pronounced as [fɾʲi], the -r- was fixed in the linguistic memory of people as being non-initial and slender.  The whole paradigm of <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> can be found in the page [[PPP_-_Pronouns,_prepositions_and_their_pronunciation#Ri|here]].
+The reasons for this seem mysterious but it's not really such a mystery.  The reasons for the r being slender are clear.  In Old Irish, the r was simply not at the beginning of the word because <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> used to be <span style="color: #6600CC;">fri</span>.  Over time, the f just got lenited away.  However, because <span style="color: #6600CC;">fri</span> had been originally (when the <span style="color: #008000;">f</span> was still around) pronounced as [fɾʲi], the -r- was fixed in the linguistic memory of people as being non-initial and slender.  The whole paradigm of <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> can be found in the page [[PPP_-_Pronouns,_prepositions_and_their_pronunciation#Ri|here]]. It does, oddly enough, survive in one instance: the prefix <span style="color: #008000;">frith-</span> but we won't go into that here because it would be too much of a tangent, even for me!
 So, why has the -r-, which apparently was still slender in Old Irish changed to a broad -r-?  Probably two things happened at the same time:

@@ Loidhne 26: / Loidhne 26: @@
 You will sometimes see <span style="color: #008000;">ruinn</span> and <span style="color: #008000;">ruibh</span> spelt as <span style="color: #008000;">rinn</span> and <span style="color: #008000;">ribh</span>. Also, you will have noticed that most unexpectedly, the <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> in <span style="color: #008000;">rium, riut, ris, rithe</span> and <span style="color: #008000;">riutha</span> is pronounced as [rʲ] even though you will have learned that at the beginning of a word all r-sounds are pronounced strong, as [R].
-The reasons for this seem mysterious but it's not really such a mystery.  The reasons for the r being slender are clear.  In Old Irish, the r was simply not at the beginning of the word because <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> used to be <span style="color: #6600CC;">fri</span>.  Over time, the f just got lenited away.  However, because <span style="color: #6600CC;">fri</span> had been originally (when the <span style="color: #008000;">f</span> was still around) pronounced as [fɾʲi], the -r- was fixed in the linguistic memory of people as being non-initial and slender.  The whole paradigm of <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> can be found in the page on the history of prepositions.
+The reasons for this seem mysterious but it's not really such a mystery.  The reasons for the r being slender are clear.  In Old Irish, the r was simply not at the beginning of the word because <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> used to be <span style="color: #6600CC;">fri</span>.  Over time, the f just got lenited away.  However, because <span style="color: #6600CC;">fri</span> had been originally (when the <span style="color: #008000;">f</span> was still around) pronounced as [fɾʲi], the -r- was fixed in the linguistic memory of people as being non-initial and slender.  The whole paradigm of <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> can be found in the page [[PPP_-_Pronouns,_prepositions_and_their_pronunciation#Ri|here]].
 So, why has the -r-, which apparently was still slender in Old Irish changed to a broad -r-?  Probably two things happened at the same time:

← Mùthadh nas sine		Mùthadh on 20:45, 4 dhen Ghiblean 2017
Loidhne 152:		Loidhne 152:

	If you think back to the image with the fan and compare it to this one, you'll notice an interesting convergence because the same "symbol", <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span>, is used in both cases to represent the action relationship which is going on:		If you think back to the image with the fan and compare it to this one, you'll notice an interesting convergence because the same "symbol", <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span>, is used in both cases to represent the action relationship which is going on:
		+
		+	[[Faidhle:argamaid.jpg\|centre]]

	{\| style="width: 60%;" border="0" align="center"		{\| style="width: 60%;" border="0" align="center"

@@ Loidhne 45: / Loidhne 45: @@
 The primary meaning of <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> is best summed up as the "interaction between two participants in which some form of feedback or resistance is exhibited".  Think of a man holding his head in front of a fan blowing at full force and you're not far off the concept.  And contrary to some grammars, it *can* involve physical motion.
-[[Faidhle:fan.jpg]]
+[[Faidhle:fan.jpg|centre]]
 The reason for not just giving you a list of possible translations is that such a long list would suggest that it's a very convoluted preposition when it really isn't.  We're just trying to get away from the English speaking point of view for a bit.

← Mùthadh nas sine		Mùthadh on 20:44, 4 dhen Ghiblean 2017
Loidhne 44:		Loidhne 44:

	The primary meaning of <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> is best summed up as the "interaction between two participants in which some form of feedback or resistance is exhibited". Think of a man holding his head in front of a fan blowing at full force and you're not far off the concept. And contrary to some grammars, it can involve physical motion.		The primary meaning of <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> is best summed up as the "interaction between two participants in which some form of feedback or resistance is exhibited". Think of a man holding his head in front of a fan blowing at full force and you're not far off the concept. And contrary to some grammars, it can involve physical motion.
		+
		+	[[Faidhle:fan.jpg]]

	The reason for not just giving you a list of possible translations is that such a long list would suggest that it's a very convoluted preposition when it really isn't. We're just trying to get away from the English speaking point of view for a bit.		The reason for not just giving you a list of possible translations is that such a long list would suggest that it's a very convoluted preposition when it really isn't. We're just trying to get away from the English speaking point of view for a bit.

@@ Loidhne 32: / Loidhne 32: @@
 On the one hand, there has probably been a certain amount of re-analysis going on with people trying to fit an irregular pattern into a regular pattern.  Something like this is occurring among modern English speakers who are re-analysing irregular plurals and slowly getting rid of them.  These days, although "fishes" is perhaps frowned upon, it's certainly current in the spoken language.  So in Gaelic, to some extent, people would have tried to to squeeze <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> into the regular pronunciation patterns by pronouncing <span style="color: #008000;">rinn</span> as it now "appears" to be - with an initial r which has to be strong.
-But, at the same time, something else was going on.  Consonant length was shifting away from the consonant and onto the vowel.  And we all know where that leads to in modern Gaelic.  Let's take it one step at a time to understand the sequence of the daisy chain: [fɾʲiɲː] > [ɾʲiɲː] > [ɾʲiːɲ] > [ɾʲuiɲ].  At this stage, probably somewhere around the year 1500, a problem arose.  The [ɾʲ] is suddenly in front of a very broad diphthong [ui] which makes it difficult to pronounce and "illegal" in terms of its phonetic structure (according to the rules of Gaelic, of course.)  The easy solution was to make the r broad because that fits in nicely with the usual rule that r at the beginning of a word is always broad.  But then, what about <span style="color: #008000;">ribh/ruibh</span>?  I'm not sure, but perhaps a case of analogy surfaced, i.e. people applied the pattern of another preposition e.g. <span style="color: #008000;">dhuibh</span> which used to be <span style="color: #6600CC;">duibh</span> and therefore very similar in its sound structure.
+But, at the same time, something else was going on.  Consonant length was shifting away from the consonant and onto the vowel.  And we all know [[Compensatory lengthening and The secret of time|what that leads to]] in modern Gaelic.  Let's take it one step at a time to understand the sequence of the daisy chain: [fɾʲiɲː] > [ɾʲiɲː] > [ɾʲiːɲ] > [ɾʲuiɲ].  At this stage, probably somewhere around the year 1500, a problem arose.  The [ɾʲ] is suddenly in front of a very broad diphthong [ui] which makes it difficult to pronounce and "illegal" in terms of its phonetic structure (according to the rules of Gaelic, of course.)  The easy solution was to make the r broad because that fits in nicely with the usual rule that r at the beginning of a word is always broad.  But then, what about <span style="color: #008000;">ribh/ruibh</span>?  I'm not sure, but perhaps a case of analogy surfaced, i.e. people applied the pattern of another preposition e.g. <span style="color: #008000;">dhuibh</span> which used to be <span style="color: #6600CC;">duibh</span> and therefore very similar in its sound structure.
 Thus, the variant spellings are simply reflexes of something that used to be <span style="color: #6600CC;">rinn & ribh</span> and are now <span style="color: #008000;">ruinn & ruibh</span>.

@@ Loidhne 197: / Loidhne 197: @@
 And then there are a number of verbs which take <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> for reasons best known to themselves which you just have to learn such as <span style="color: #008000;">feitheamh ri</span>  'waiting for' and
-<span style="color: #008000;">gabh ri</span> 'to accept', but then every language has annoying constructions which do not fit easily into the paradigm.
+<span style="color: #008000;">gabh ri</span> 'to accept'. But every language has annoying constructions which do not fit easily into the paradigm.
 {{Teamplaid:Roimhearan}}

@@ Loidhne 162: / Loidhne 162: @@
 ==and beyond...==
-And then there is the remainder of expressions and idioms which use ri which are perhaps best just learned, things like réidh ri Dia 'at peace with God' where you could somehow invoke the above, but only with difficulty.  Here's a list of usages which are difficult to predict but thankfully not that tricky to learn:
+And then there are the remainder of expressions and idioms which use <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> which are best just learned, things like <span style="color: #008000;">réidh ri Dia</span> 'at peace with God' where you could somehow invoke the above, but only with difficulty.  Here's a list of usages which are difficult to predict but thankfully not that tricky to learn:
-ri + Verbal Noun » to be V-PAST
+<span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> + Verbal Noun » to be V-PAST
 {| style="width: 35%;" border="0"
 |-
@@ Loidhne 175: / Loidhne 175: @@
 |}
-aig + ri » have to [present/non-tense]
+<span style="color: #008000;">aig</span> + <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> » have to [present/non-tense]
 {| style="width: 35%;" border="0"
 |-
@@ Loidhne 185: / Loidhne 185: @@
-ri + Temporal Adverb » during/in
+<span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> + Temporal Adverb » during/in
 {| style="width: 35%;" border="0"
 |-
@@ Loidhne 196: / Loidhne 196: @@
 |}
-And then there is a number of verbs which take ri for reasons best known to themselves which you just have to learn such as feitheamh ri  'waiting for' and gabh ri 'to accept', but then every language has annoying constructions which don't fit into the paradigm easily.
+And then there are a number of verbs which take <span style="color: #008000;">ri</span> for reasons best known to themselves which you just have to learn such as <span style="color: #008000;">feitheamh ri</span>  'waiting for' and
 {{Teamplaid:Roimhearan}}