Genitives in -(th)rach - Eachdraidh nam mùthaidhean

Susanharris 00:56, 5 dhen Lùnastal 2013

2013-08-05T00:56:30Z

Susanharris 17:30, 28 dhen Ògmhios 2013

2013-06-28T17:30:03Z

Susanharris 17:26, 28 dhen Ògmhios 2013

2013-06-28T17:26:47Z

Susanharris 16:24, 28 dhen Ògmhios 2013

2013-06-28T16:24:21Z

Susanharris 16:23, 28 dhen Ògmhios 2013

2013-06-28T16:23:30Z

Akerbeltz 10:21, 28 dhen Ògmhios 2013

2013-06-28T10:21:14Z

Akerbeltz 10:20, 28 dhen Ògmhios 2013

2013-06-28T10:20:35Z

Susanharris 08:01, 28 dhen Ògmhios 2013

2013-06-28T08:01:51Z

Susanharris 06:03, 28 dhen Ògmhios 2013

2013-06-28T06:03:34Z

Susanharris 05:50, 28 dhen Ògmhios 2013

2013-06-28T05:50:28Z

@@ Loidhne 62: / Loidhne 62: @@
 |}
-<span style="color: #000080;">Yu orait long?</span> as they say in Tok Pisin ...
+<span style="color: #6600CC;">Yu orait long?</span> as they say in Tok Pisin ...
 <br />
 <br />
 {{BeaganGramair}}

@@ Loidhne 39: / Loidhne 39: @@
 <br />
 {| style="width: 25%;" border="0" align="center"
-! colspan="3" align="center" | And one's that don't anymore
+! colspan="3" align="center" | And ones that don't anymore
 |-
 | <span style="color: #008000;">cuid</span> || » <span style="color: #008000;">cuid</span> || †<span style="color: #008000;">codach</span>

@@ Loidhne 56: / Loidhne 56: @@
 <br />
 {| style="width: 30%;" border="0" align="center"
-! colspan="3" align="center" | And of course the "undecided camp, words which allow both
+! colspan="3" align="center" | And the undecided camp which allows both
 |-
 | <span style="color: #008000;">lasair</span> || » <span style="color: #008000;">lasair</span> || <span style="color: #008000;">lasrach</span>

@@ Loidhne 5: / Loidhne 5: @@
 In modern Gaelic, for starters, they only affect feminine nouns. Add the second clue that they only affect feminine nouns which end in <span style="color: #008000;">-air</span> and the list of candidates shrinks considerably. That's because by far the most common nouns which end in <span style="color: #008000;">-air</span> are masculine, where the <span style="color: #008000;">-air</span> is the agentive suffix i.e. someone who does something: <span style="color: #008000;">clach » clachair, sgrìobh » sgrìobhadair.</span>
-So, let's take a word like <span style="color: #008000;">iuchair.</span> in which the feminine ends in <span style="color: #008000;">-air.</span> What happens is that the <span style="color: #008000;">-ach</span> ending gets stuck on: <span style="color: #008000;">*iuchair-ach</span>. But because that comes out as a three syllable word (which is a bit long from the Gaelic point of view which likes two syllable words), the second syllable (which was unstressed to begin with) collapses to make way for the <span style="color: #008000;">-ach.</span> And because the <span style="color: #008000;">ch</span> is broad [x], the slender <span style="color: #008000;">r</span> [rʲ] gets assimilated into a broad [r] and we end up with <span style="color: #008000;">iuchrach.</span>
+So, let's take a word like <span style="color: #008000;">iuchair</span> in which the feminine ends in <span style="color: #008000;">-air.</span> What happens is that the <span style="color: #008000;">-ach</span> ending gets stuck on: <span style="color: #008000;">*iuchair-ach</span>. But because that comes out as a three syllable word (which is a bit long from the Gaelic point of view which likes two syllable words), the second syllable (which was unstressed to begin with) collapses to make way for the <span style="color: #008000;">-ach.</span> And because the <span style="color: #008000;">ch</span> is broad [x], the slender <span style="color: #008000;">r</span> [rʲ] gets assimilated into a broad [r] and we end up with <span style="color: #008000;">iuchrach.</span>
 Now the catch (and slightly annoying thing) is that this is a bit weird even for Gaelic.  So, over time, the number of words which do that has decreased. Basically, people played around a bit and settled on a genitive which wasn't as far off. This can be seen in the case of <span style="color: #008000;">màthair</span> which used to have its genitive as <span style="color: #008000;">*màthrach</span> (it still does in Irish). But in modern Gaelic this has changed to <span style="color: #008000;">màthar.</span> Or, a solution was tried with the word <span style="color: #008000;">cuid</span> which used to have the genitive <span style="color: #008000;">codach</span> but which nobody really uses any more. Instead they just use the nominative e.g. <span style="color: #008000;">meud na cuid seo.</span> Oh, plus that, people have also started to switch the gender to masculine to bring them in line with all the other <span style="color: #008000;">-air</span> words. <span style="color: #008000;">Machair</span> used to be feminine only but today quite a lot of people treat it as if it were masculine.

@@ Loidhne 5: / Loidhne 5: @@
 In modern Gaelic, for starters, they only affect feminine nouns. Add the second clue that they only affect feminine nouns which end in <span style="color: #008000;">-air</span> and the list of candidates shrinks considerably. That's because by far the most common nouns which end in <span style="color: #008000;">-air</span> are masculine, where the <span style="color: #008000;">-air</span> is the agentive suffix i.e. someone who does something: <span style="color: #008000;">clach » clachair, sgrìobh » sgrìobhadair.</span>
-So, let's take a word like <span style="color: #008000;">iuchair.</span> It's feminine and ends in <span style="color: #008000;">-air.</span> What happens is that the <span style="color: #008000;">-ach</span> ending gets stuck on: <span style="color: #008000;">*iuchair-ach</span>. But because that comes out as a three syllable word (which is a bit long from the Gaelic point of view which likes two syllable words), the second syllable (which was unstressed to begin with) collapses to make way for the <span style="color: #008000;">-ach.</span> And because the <span style="color: #008000;">ch</span> is broad [x], the slender <span style="color: #008000;">r</span> [rʲ] gets assimilated into a broad [r] and we end up with <span style="color: #008000;">iuchrach.</span>
+So, let's take a word like <span style="color: #008000;">iuchair.</span> in which the feminine ends in <span style="color: #008000;">-air.</span> What happens is that the <span style="color: #008000;">-ach</span> ending gets stuck on: <span style="color: #008000;">*iuchair-ach</span>. But because that comes out as a three syllable word (which is a bit long from the Gaelic point of view which likes two syllable words), the second syllable (which was unstressed to begin with) collapses to make way for the <span style="color: #008000;">-ach.</span> And because the <span style="color: #008000;">ch</span> is broad [x], the slender <span style="color: #008000;">r</span> [rʲ] gets assimilated into a broad [r] and we end up with <span style="color: #008000;">iuchrach.</span>
 Now the catch (and slightly annoying thing) is that this is a bit weird even for Gaelic.  So, over time, the number of words which do that has decreased. Basically, people played around a bit and settled on a genitive which wasn't as far off. This can be seen in the case of <span style="color: #008000;">màthair</span> which used to have its genitive as <span style="color: #008000;">*màthrach</span> (it still does in Irish). But in modern Gaelic this has changed to <span style="color: #008000;">màthar.</span> Or, a solution was tried with the word <span style="color: #008000;">cuid</span> which used to have the genitive <span style="color: #008000;">codach</span> but which nobody really uses any more. Instead they just use the nominative e.g. <span style="color: #008000;">meud na cuid seo.</span> Oh, plus that, people have also started to switch the gender to masculine to bring them in line with all the other <span style="color: #008000;">-air</span> words. <span style="color: #008000;">Machair</span> used to be feminine only but today quite a lot of people treat it as if it were masculine.

@@ Loidhne 52: / Loidhne 52: @@
 |-
 | <span style="color: #008000;">suipeir</span> || » <span style="color: #008000;">suipeire</span> || †<span style="color: #008000;">suipeireach</span>
 |-
 |}

← Mùthadh nas sine		Mùthadh on 08:01, 28 dhen Ògmhios 2013
Loidhne 1:		Loidhne 1:
−	Most Gaelic genitive forms are reasonably close to their nominative forms. One major exception is an apparently weird group of nouns which turn an <span style="color: #008000;">-air</span> into a <span style="color: #008000;">-thrach</span> ...	+	Most Gaelic genitive forms are reasonably close to their nominative forms. One major exception is an apparently weird group of nouns which turn an <span style="color: #008000;">-air</span> into a <span style="color: #008000;">-thrach</span> .

	Actually, they are weird. So for a change we won't go into the details of why (tied to case system changes between Old Irish and Middle Irish) but simply look at what's going on and how we can spot one of them weirdos.		Actually, they are weird. So for a change we won't go into the details of why (tied to case system changes between Old Irish and Middle Irish) but simply look at what's going on and how we can spot one of them weirdos.

@@ Loidhne 7: / Loidhne 7: @@
 So, let's take a word like <span style="color: #008000;">iuchair.</span> It's feminine and ends in <span style="color: #008000;">-air.</span> What happens is that the <span style="color: #008000;">-ach</span> ending gets stuck on: <span style="color: #008000;">*iuchair-ach</span>. But because that comes out as a three syllable word (which is a bit long from the Gaelic point of view which likes two syllable words), the second syllable (which was unstressed to begin with) collapses to make way for the <span style="color: #008000;">-ach.</span> And because the <span style="color: #008000;">ch</span> is broad [x], the slender <span style="color: #008000;">r</span> [rʲ] gets assimilated into a broad [r] and we end up with <span style="color: #008000;">iuchrach.</span>
-Now the catch (and slightly annoying thing) is that this is a bit weird even for Gaelic.  So, over time, the number of words which do that has decreased. Basically, people played around a bit and settled on a genitive which wasn't as far off. This can be seen in the case of <span style="color: #008000;">màthair</span> which used to have its genitive as <span style="color: #008000;">*màthrach</span> (it still does in Irish). But in modern Gaelic this has changed to <span style="color: #008000;">màthar.</span> Or, a solution was tried with the word <span style="color: #008000;">cuid</span> which used to have the genitive <span style="color: #008000;">codach</span> but which no-body really uses any more. Instead they just use the nominative e.g. <span style="color: #008000;">meud na cuid seo.</span> Oh, plus that, people have also started to switch the gender to masculine to bring them in line with all the other <span style="color: #008000;">-air</span> words. <span style="color: #008000;">Machair</span> used to be feminine only but today quite a lot of people treat it as if it were masculine.
+Now the catch (and slightly annoying thing) is that this is a bit weird even for Gaelic.  So, over time, the number of words which do that has decreased. Basically, people played around a bit and settled on a genitive which wasn't as far off. This can be seen in the case of <span style="color: #008000;">màthair</span> which used to have its genitive as <span style="color: #008000;">*màthrach</span> (it still does in Irish). But in modern Gaelic this has changed to <span style="color: #008000;">màthar.</span> Or, a solution was tried with the word <span style="color: #008000;">cuid</span> which used to have the genitive <span style="color: #008000;">codach</span> but which nobody really uses any more. Instead they just use the nominative e.g. <span style="color: #008000;">meud na cuid seo.</span> Oh, plus that, people have also started to switch the gender to masculine to bring them in line with all the other <span style="color: #008000;">-air</span> words. <span style="color: #008000;">Machair</span> used to be feminine only but today quite a lot of people treat it as if it were masculine.
 So, it all gets a bit messy.  But here's a list of some common words that still do, or used to: