Compensatory lengthening and The secret of time - Eachdraidh nam mùthaidhean

Akerbeltz 11:10, 19 dhen Dùbhlachd 2019

2019-12-19T11:10:44Z

Susanharris 03:38, 17 dhen Lùnastal 2013

2013-08-17T03:38:48Z

Susanharris 01:37, 17 dhen Lùnastal 2013

2013-08-17T01:37:22Z

Susanharris: /* What would the doc recommend? */

2013-08-17T01:31:28Z

What would the doc recommend?

Akerbeltz: /* So how does this all relate to the Secret of Time? */

2013-08-16T10:51:11Z

So how does this all relate to the Secret of Time?

Akerbeltz: /* I'm learning Perthshire Gaelic, do I need to know this? */

2013-08-16T10:50:42Z

I'm learning Perthshire Gaelic, do I need to know this?

Akerbeltz: /* I'm learning Perthshire Gaelic, do I need to know this? */

2013-08-16T10:49:19Z

I'm learning Perthshire Gaelic, do I need to know this?

Akerbeltz 10:48, 16 dhen Lùnastal 2013

2013-08-16T10:48:30Z

Akerbeltz 10:47, 16 dhen Lùnastal 2013

2013-08-16T10:47:51Z

Akerbeltz: /* I'm learning Perthshire Gaelic, do I need to know this? */

2013-08-16T10:46:51Z

I'm learning Perthshire Gaelic, do I need to know this?

@@ Loidhne 38: / Loidhne 38: @@
 | <span style="color: #6600CC;">donn</span> [doNː] || <span style="color: #008000;">donn</span> || <span style="color: #6600CC;">donn</span>
 |-
-| <span style="color: #6600CC;">corr</span> [koRː] || <span style="color: #008000;">corr</span> || <span style="color: #6600CC;">corr</span>
+| <span style="color: #6600CC;">corr</span> [koRː] || <span style="color: #008000;">còrr</span> || <span style="color: #6600CC;">corr</span>
 |-
-| <span style="color: #6600CC;">cerr</span> [kʲeRː] || <span style="color: #008000;">cearr</span> || <span style="color: #6600CC;">cearr</span>
+| <span style="color: #6600CC;">cerr</span> [kʲeRː] || <span style="color: #008000;">ceàrr</span> || <span style="color: #6600CC;">cearr</span>
 |-
 |}
@@ Loidhne 66: / Loidhne 66: @@
 ==I'm learning Perthshire Gaelic, do I need to know this?==
-This happens in virtually all surviving dialects of Gaelic. Some conservative (regarding lengthening) dialects of East Perthshire, Kintyre and Arran had kept the long consonants, never lengthened the vowel, and never dipthongized the vowel. But, today, those dialects are mostly moribund. So to be brief, all that needs to be said about these dialects is that in almost all cases they either lengthen the vowel, or simply have a short vowel, but hardly ever dipthongise the vowel. So, in Arran Gaelic for example <span style="color: #008000;">ann, ceann, donn, cum</span> and <span style="color: #008000;">ionnsaich</span> would be pronounced as: [aN] [kʲaN] [doN] [kum] and [iNsiç], and around Cowal that would be [aNː], [kʲaNː], [doNː], [kumː] and [iNːsɪç].
+This happens in virtually all surviving dialects of Gaelic. Some conservative (regarding lengthening) dialects of East Perthshire, Kintyre and Arran had kept the long consonants, never lengthened the vowel, and never dipthongized the vowel. But, today, those dialects are mostly moribund. So to be brief, all that needs to be said about these dialects is that in almost all cases they either lengthen the vowel, or simply have a short vowel, but hardly ever dipthongise the vowel. So, in Arran Gaelic for example <span style="color: #008000;">ann, ceann, donn, cùm</span> and <span style="color: #008000;">ionnsaich</span> would be pronounced as: [aN] [kʲaN] [doN] [kum] and [iNsiç], and around Cowal that would be [aNː], [kʲaNː], [doNː], [kumː] and [iNːsɪç].
 The most lively dialects today are fairly homogeneous, except perhaps for Lewis Gaelic (don't sigh) which is the most progressive among the dialects, but we'll deal with that later.
@@ Loidhne 78: / Loidhne 78: @@
 | align="center" colspan="5" | '''a'''
 |-
-| <span style="color: #008000;">call</span> [kauL] || <span style="color: #008000;">gann</span> [gauN] || <span style="color: #008000;">cam</span> [kaum] || <span style="color: #008000;">barr</span> [baːR]
+| <span style="color: #008000;">call</span> [kauL] || <span style="color: #008000;">gann</span> [gauN] || <span style="color: #008000;">cam</span> [kaum] || <span style="color: #008000;">bàrr</span> [baːR]
 |- style="background: #D9D9D9;"
 | align="center" colspan="5" | '''(e)ai'''
 |-
-| <span style="color: #008000;">caill [kaiLʲ] || <span style="color: #008000;">cainnt</span> [kãĩNʲdʲ] || <span style="color: #008000;">maim</span> [maim] || <span style="color: #008000;">feairrd</span> [fjaːRdʲ]
+| <span style="color: #008000;">caill [kaiLʲ] || <span style="color: #008000;">cainnt</span> [kãĩNʲdʲ] || <span style="color: #008000;">maim</span> [maim] || <span style="color: #008000;">feàirrd</span> [fjaːRdʲ]
 |- style="background: #D9D9D9;"
 | align="center" colspan="5" | '''ea'''
 |-
-| <span style="color: #008000;">seall</span> [ʃauL] || <span style="color: #008000;">ceann</span> [kʲauN] || <span style="color: #008000;">dream</span> [draum] || <span style="color: #008000;">cearr</span> [kʲaːR]
+| <span style="color: #008000;">seall</span> [ʃauL] || <span style="color: #008000;">ceann</span> [kʲauN] || <span style="color: #008000;">dream</span> [draum] || <span style="color: #008000;">ceàrr</span> [kʲaːR]
 |- style="background: #D9D9D9;"
 | align="center" colspan="5" | '''ei'''
@@ Loidhne 94: / Loidhne 94: @@
 | align="center" colspan="5" | '''i'''
 |-
-| <span style="color: #008000;">cill</span> [kʲiːLʲ] || <span style="color: #008000;">binn</span> [biːNʲ] || <span style="color: #008000;">im</span> [iːm] ||
+| <span style="color: #008000;">cill</span> [kʲiːLʲ] || <span style="color: #008000;">binn</span> [biːNʲ] || <span style="color: #008000;">ìm</span> [iːm] ||
 |- style="background: #D9D9D9;"
 | align="center" colspan="5" | '''io'''
@@ Loidhne 102: / Loidhne 102: @@
 | align="center" colspan="5" | '''iu'''
 |-
-| || || <span style="color: #008000;">rium</span> [rʲuːm] || <span style="color: #008000;">tiurr</span> [tʲuːR]
+| || || <span style="color: #008000;">rium</span> [rʲuːm] ||
 |- style="background: #D9D9D9;"
 | align="center" colspan="5" | '''o'''
 |-
-| <span style="color: #008000;">toll</span> [tɔuL] || <span style="color: #008000;">fonn</span> [fɔuN] || <span style="color: #008000;">tom</span> [tɔum] || <span style="color: #008000;">torr</span> [tɔːR]
+| <span style="color: #008000;">toll</span> [tɔuL] || <span style="color: #008000;">fonn</span> [fɔuN] || <span style="color: #008000;">tom</span> [tɔum] || <span style="color: #008000;">tòrr</span> [tɔːR]
 |-style="background: #D9D9D9;"
 | align="center" colspan="5" | '''oi'''
@@ Loidhne 114: / Loidhne 114: @@
 | align="center" colspan="5" | '''u'''
 |-
-| <span style="color: #008000;">a-null</span> [əˈNuːL] || <span style="color: #008000;">grunn</span> [gruːN] || <span style="color: #008000;">cum</span> [kuːm] || <span style="color: #008000;">sgurr</span> [sguːR]
+| <span style="color: #008000;">a-null</span> [əˈNuːL] || <span style="color: #008000;">grunn</span> [gruːN] || <span style="color: #008000;">cùm</span> [kuːm] || <span style="color: #008000;">sgùrr</span> [sguːR]
 |- style="background: #D9D9D9;"
 | align="center" colspan="5" | '''ui'''
@@ Loidhne 122: / Loidhne 122: @@
 |}
 <br/>
-Lewis just extends the breaking to [iː] and [uː] so you get <span style="color: #008000;">cum</span> [kɔum] and <span style="color: #008000;">ìm</span> [ɤim] etc.
+Lewis just extends the breaking to [iː] and [uː] so you get <span style="color: #008000;">cùm</span> [kɔum] and <span style="color: #008000;">ìm</span> [ɤim] etc.
 ==So how does this all relate to the Secret of Time?==
@@ Loidhne 133: / Loidhne 133: @@
 | <span style="color: #008000;">àm</span> || ⇨ || <span style="color: #008000;">clàr-ama, amannan</span>...
 |-
-| <span style="color: #008000;">barr</span> || ⇨ || <span style="color: #008000;">Dùn Bharra, barrachd</span>...
+| <span style="color: #008000;">bàrr</span> || ⇨ || <span style="color: #008000;">Dùn Bharra, barrachd</span>...
 |-
-| <span style="color: #008000;">gearr</span> || ⇨ || <span style="color: #008000;">a' gearradh, a ghearras, gearraidh</span>...
+| <span style="color: #008000;">geàrr</span> || ⇨ || <span style="color: #008000;">a' gearradh, a ghearras, gearraidh</span>...
 |-
 | <span style="color: #008000;">ceann</span> || ⇨ || <span style="color: #008000;">a' ceannach, a cheannaicheas</span>...
 |-
-| <span style="color: #008000;">cum</span> || ⇨ || <span style="color: #008000;">a' cumail, a chumas, cumaidh</span>...
+| <span style="color: #008000;">cùm</span> || ⇨ || <span style="color: #008000;">a' cumail, a chumas, cumaidh</span>...
 |-
 | <span style="color: #008000;">tinn</span> || ⇨ || <span style="color: #008000;">nas tinne, tinneas</span>...
@@ Loidhne 146: / Loidhne 146: @@
 ==What would the doc recommend?==
-My personal recommendation is that you do not put this superfluous accent onto vowels in these positions. If you do, it will just mess things up, especially for learners. But I've even heard the odd native speaker get this pearshaped when reading a text out loud. The only exceptions are:
+My personal preference would be not to put this superfluous grave onto ù and ò before m and rr. If you do, it just messes things up, especially for learners. I've even heard the odd native speaker get this pear-shaped when reading a text out loud. But fighting city hall is tedious, so it's perhaps best to follow GOC in writing the grave before m and rr BUT to make sure you remember words like <span style="color: #008000;">bàrr</span> and <span style="color: #008000;">cùm</span> shorten the vowel to <span style="color: #008000;">barran</span> and <span style="color: #008000;">cumail</span> when there's a following vowel
 * words which always have a long vowel/diphthong (<span style="color: #008000;">féill, dìlleachdan, ciùrradh, ciùrrail, gàrradh</span>...)
 * two letter words like <span style="color: #008000;">ìm</span> and <span style="color: #008000;">àm</span>, technically not necessary either, but that's a usage that's fairly old, presumably because of the potential overlap between the definite article and <span style="color: #008000;">àm</span>.

@@ Loidhne 154: / Loidhne 154: @@
 {| style="width: 50%;" border="0" align="center"
 |- style="background: #FCE080;" align="center"
-| '''A vowel before ll, nn, rr, and m will get lengthened or diphthongised<br /> unless it is followed by a vowel.'''
+| '''A vowel before ll, nn, rr, and m will get lengthened or diphthongised<br /> unless they are followed by a vowel.'''
 |-
 |}

@@ Loidhne 79: / Loidhne 79: @@
 |-
 | <span style="color: #008000;">call</span> [kauL] || <span style="color: #008000;">gann</span> [gauN] || <span style="color: #008000;">cam</span> [kaum] || <span style="color: #008000;">barr</span> [baːR]
-|- style="background: grey; color: black"
+|- style="background: #D9D9D9;"
 | align="center" colspan="5" | '''(e)ai'''
 |-
 | <span style="color: #008000;">caill [kaiLʲ] || <span style="color: #008000;">cainnt</span> [kãĩNʲdʲ] || <span style="color: #008000;">maim</span> [maim] || <span style="color: #008000;">feairrd</span> [fjaːRdʲ]
-|- style="background: grey; color: black"
+|- style="background: #D9D9D9;"
 | align="center" colspan="5" | '''ea'''
 |-
 | <span style="color: #008000;">seall</span> [ʃauL] || <span style="color: #008000;">ceann</span> [kʲauN] || <span style="color: #008000;">dream</span> [draum] || <span style="color: #008000;">cearr</span> [kʲaːR]
-|- style="background: grey; color: black"
+|- style="background: #D9D9D9;"
 | align="center" colspan="5" | '''ei'''
 |-
 | <span style="color: #008000;">beinn</span> [beiNʲ] || <span style="color: #008000;">greim</span> [grʲeim] || || ||
-|- style="background: grey; color: black"
+|- style="background: #D9D9D9;"
 | align="center" colspan="5" | '''i'''
 |-
 | <span style="color: #008000;">cill</span> [kʲiːLʲ] || <span style="color: #008000;">binn</span> [biːNʲ] || <span style="color: #008000;">im</span> [iːm] ||
-|- style="background: grey; color: black"
+|- style="background: #D9D9D9;"
 | align="center" colspan="5" | '''io'''
 |-
 | || <span style="color: #008000;">fionn</span> [fjuːN] || || <span style="color: #008000;">sgiorr</span> [sgʲu:R]
-|- style="background: grey; color: black"
+|- style="background: #D9D9D9;"
 | align="center" colspan="5" | '''iu'''
 |-
 | || || <span style="color: #008000;">rium</span> [rʲuːm] || <span style="color: #008000;">tiurr</span> [tʲuːR]
-|- style="background: grey; color: black"
+|- style="background: #D9D9D9;"
 | align="center" colspan="5" | '''o'''
 |-
 | <span style="color: #008000;">toll</span> [tɔuL] || <span style="color: #008000;">fonn</span> [fɔuN] || <span style="color: #008000;">tom</span> [tɔum] || <span style="color: #008000;">torr</span> [tɔːR]
-|-style="background: grey; color: black"
+|-style="background: #D9D9D9;"
 | align="center" colspan="5" | '''oi'''
 |-
 | <span style="color: #008000;">goill</span> [gɤiLʲ] || <span style="color: #008000;">roinn</span> [RɤiNʲ] || <span style="color: #008000;">stoim</span> [sdɤim] ||
-|- style="background: grey; color: black"
+|- style="background: #D9D9D9;"
 | align="center" colspan="5" | '''u'''
 |-
 | <span style="color: #008000;">a-null</span> [əˈNuːL] || <span style="color: #008000;">grunn</span> [gruːN] || <span style="color: #008000;">cum</span> [kuːm] || <span style="color: #008000;">sgurr</span> [sguːR]
-|- style="background: grey; color: black"
+|- style="background: #D9D9D9;"
 | align="center" colspan="5" | '''ui'''
 |-

@@ Loidhne 154: / Loidhne 154: @@
 {| style="width: 50%;" border="0" align="center"
 |- style="background: #FCE080;" align="center"
-| '''A vowel before ll, nn, rr, and m will get lengthened or diphthongised<br />except if they are followed by a vowel.'''
+| '''A vowel before ll, nn, rr, and m will get lengthened or diphthongised<br /> unless it is followed by a vowel.'''
 |-
 |}

@@ Loidhne 125: / Loidhne 125: @@
 ==So how does this all relate to the Secret of Time?==
-Perhaps a bad pun but what's Gaelic for time? <span style="color: #008000;">Àm</span>, isn't it? Or is it <span style="color: #008000;">am</span>? Consider <span style="color: #008000;">Cùm</span> or <span style="color: #008000;">cum</span> and <span style="color: #008000;">Ceàrr</span> or <span style="color: #008000;">cearr</span>? Strictly speaking, as long as you're aware of the rules of lengthening/diphthongisation (easy if you're a native speaker) there's no need really to indicate length over the vowels. Whatever GOC says, it's up to you, in a way, because the grave is surplus to requirements.  But, anyway, those are the secrets behind the confusion arising over words like <span style="color: #008000;">àm</span> vs <span style="color: #008000;">am</span>.
+Perhaps a bad pun but what's Gaelic for time? <span style="color: #008000;">Àm</span>, isn't it? Or is it <span style="color: #008000;">am</span>? Consider <span style="color: #008000;">cùm</span> or <span style="color: #008000;">cum</span> and <span style="color: #008000;">ceàrr</span> or <span style="color: #008000;">cearr</span>? Strictly speaking, as long as you're aware of the rules of lengthening/diphthongisation (easy if you're a native speaker) there's no need really to indicate length over the vowels. Whatever GOC says, it's up to you, in a way, because the grave is surplus to requirements.  But, anyway, those are the secrets behind the confusion arising over words like <span style="color: #008000;">àm</span> vs <span style="color: #008000;">am</span>.
 However, watch out for the derivatives of these words. Remember that a following vowel prevents a long vowel or a diphthong from appearing. So, because many words add a vowel to indicate the genitive, or add an ending to form a verbal noun, you must not pronounce or write a long vowel/diphthong in the derived word. Here are a few illustrative examples:

← Mùthadh nas sine		Mùthadh on 10:48, 16 dhen Lùnastal 2013
Loidhne 53:		Loidhne 53:
	\|}		\|}

		+	==So what IS the rule?==
	If the sonorant is followed by another vowel, this doesn't happen. This includes words with helping vowels, so words like <span style="color: #008000;">Donnchadh</span> escape both lengthening and diphthongisation. In linguistics, the order in which rules are put into action is called "rule ordering". Rule ordering means that when there are two rules which could both apply, the language usually has a preference for which to apply first and which to apply second. Usually, applying one means the other can't apply any more.		If the sonorant is followed by another vowel, this doesn't happen. This includes words with helping vowels, so words like <span style="color: #008000;">Donnchadh</span> escape both lengthening and diphthongisation. In linguistics, the order in which rules are put into action is called "rule ordering". Rule ordering means that when there are two rules which could both apply, the language usually has a preference for which to apply first and which to apply second. Usually, applying one means the other can't apply any more.